Episode 04: Eve Poole

Eve Poole is a leadership expert.

Eve has had two career tracks. One as a leading business consultant at Deloitte, having an MBA, and the other within the Anglican church, with a PhD in theology (Capitalism and Theology ). She has worked with thousands of leaders across sectors and the world. These experiences with leaders inspired her to develop the idea of Leadersmithing: a movement where she believes that leadership is all about the day-to-day craft of gaining real experience in the critical incidents of leading, so leaders develop the muscle memory to do it well. More information about Eve, her books and resources can be found at her website evepoole.com.

Eve Poole - Timed Interview Summary

0:00 – 13:38

Born in St Andrew’s, Scotland, the third of four children.  From a family of high academic achievers, both women and men, and English and Scots, based in Oxford and St Andrews. Colin Dexter, the author of the Inspector Morse books, set in and around Oxford, is a family friend. Positive influence of grandparents into her early teens. Childhood holidays in Summertown, North Oxford as a magical ‘Brigadoon’.

13:39 – 25:57

Mother and father meet at St Andrews university as undergraduates and marry. Father from an academically competitive family, studies Classics and teaches in State schools in and around Dundee. Great gift for friendship and a ‘rescuer’ of people. Friendly competition between cousins is a feature of Eve’s childhood, but they are “great mates” now.  Parents temperamentally different but incredibly good together. Mother develops her own career as a genealogist after raising four children. Early death of father in his fifties has had a massive impact on the family. Discussion of the character traits inherited from parents.  

25:58 – 47:16

Childhood in St Andrews and Eve’s education.  Eve and siblings attend rough state primary school and are bullied as ‘the snobby and boring’ family, but who isn’t bullied? Great advantage of not being educated privately into a narrow ‘echelon’, insulated from most people. Learns the importance of eccentricity and of difference. Learns early how to be ‘bilingual’ in how she speaks in the school playground and at home. The parallel experiences of being ‘bilingual’ as English and Scottish. Brexit, Britishness, Scottishness and Englishness.  Eve’s experience of learning to be a chameleon in class terms, as well - of breaking into high society by “carrying off the posh thing”, like Cinderella (“she couldn’t have got in without her dress”). The positive and negative aspects of Scottish identity.

47:17 – 59:55

Experience of church as she grows up. Cradle Christian. Attends All Saints, St. Andrews, whose funding had come from Mrs Annie Younger of the brewing dynasty. Baptized there as infant. “Mass of mixture of people”. Part of the oxygen of her life. Joins choir, High Church, “great way to learn about God”. Studies theology at Durham University. Academic mentors at university, James Douglas ‘Jimmy’ Dunn and Ann Loades. The different types of people studying theology. 

59:56 – 1:16:59

A step back to Eve’s secondary education. The history of her comprehensive school, Madras College, St Andrew’s.  A discussion of whether the Scots are really more egalitarian than the English. How a “shy, well-brought-up 1970s girlie from Fife, East Scotland” develops into a confident adult as a result of advice from the Jackie Album 1975. Helped by a scholarship to a school in America.

1:17:00 – 1:28:34

First job after Durham University as fast stream entrant with the Church Commissioners in 1993. Finds the organization having to modernize after some poor investment decisions. Still quite an old-fashioned culture. Seconded to Church House to support its response to historic problems with investments, but aware that she needs to develop her finance and business skills so embarks upon an MBA.

1:28:35 – 1:32:11

A short diversion. Eve takes a course at the Lucy Clayton Modelling Agency.

1:32:12 – 1:42:07

Work as a Change Management consultant specializing in capital markets but also high tech and retail businesses. Observes the strengths and weaknesses of leadership in the business world. Starts to wonder if the business world is free-riding on a Christian ethic, derived from Adam Smith, but without its depths and constraints.  Tries to work out what should be the moral compass in business. Her concern leads to a doctorate about ethics and capitalism.     

1:42:08 – 2:02:04  

Eve and Jason’s mutual interest in neuro-science. Emotional hijacks and the structure of the brain. Anecdote about Eve “picking fights with chaps” to overcome the conditioning of a shy, well-brought-up 1970s girlie from Fife, East Scotland. Uses this episode when teaching emotional intelligence at Ashridge Business School. Eve’s research into how the brain functions becomes pivotal to her book Leadersmithing and her growing research into how leaders can develop mental templates that will see them through difficult leadership situations.   A discussion of whether the habits and practices formed around virtue ethics can change human beings biologically.       

2:02:05 – 2:07:57 

Key mentors and how they stood out. The importance of finding lifelong mentors.   

2:07:58 – 2:20:23  

The meaning of courage. The Princess Diaries. There are some things which are more important than fear. Fear as data. Character trumps competence.  Techniques for fighting the stress responses that come from negative experience, from “ancient data.”

2:20:24 – 2:24:55  

Currently reflecting on the situational nature of leadership. Comparison of her positive experience at Gordonstoun but also at the Church of England. The gender issue of working in senior leadership environments which are not used to senior women.

2:24:56 – 2:33:24

How Eve becomes chair of the Board of Gordonstoun School, where Prince Charles was educated. Gordonstoun was founded by the German educationist Kurt Hahn to emphasize the building of character. Commissions project which interview former or current pupils and staff to investigate what character looks like.  The importance of being put through the mill across a range of educational, sporting and social activities in a supportive environment to develop resilience.

2:33:25 – 2:48:05

Discussion about the U.K. Church’s naivety about capitalism. A couple of vignettes illustrating this. Hard to find a university prepared to support her doctorate about theology and capitalism but finds an academic at Cambridge University who has a foothold in the business world.  Distinctions to be drawn between capitalism and commodification. Hiding behind ideologies can be a way of not coming to terms with individual responsibility for the healthy use of money.

2:48:06 – 2:56:31

Applying the Insights of Eve’s work into Christian leadership. The Leadersmithing playing cards.

2:56:32 –3:07:11  

Covid-19 questions. Should there be a one-year Universal Basic Income? Is asked by the Jubilee Centre to look at household debt and the appropriate policy responses.  Does Covid-19 put in question the affordability of higher education and should there be a return to a more vocational, apprentice-based learning, given the level of indebtedness?

3:07:12 – 3:10:36

Current research preoccupations. Robots, the Soul and Artificial Intelligence.